A24 and Mubi’s latest film, out in cinemas this Friday, has already garnered a lot of praise. It’s a murder mystery ensemble with a twist: it’s set at a hairdressing competition. Director Thomas Hardiman has thrown himself into the world of hairstyling for a loving homage to the thing we wish wasn’t everything. Despite his ode to camp, Hardiman is exceptionally understated. We spoke last year at the London Film Festival when the film was doing its festival run. After several British greetings between us, he says, “Call me Tom.” He promises to make my job of transcribing the interview easier, adding he remembers doing the same. His passion for the film’s subject is clear from the start as he runs through the log-line before getting to more important information. “We got the hair done by Eugene Souleiman whose the greatest hairdresser in the world. He does Margiela, Westwood, Comme des Garçon, every designer you can think of. He’s all over the world. We begged him to do the hair because we wanted the greatest hair that had ever been shot on film and I think it is.” 

He adds that there’s a surprise he would liked to leave for the audience to find out for themselves but it’s already out. I promise I’ll use his phrase “long takes” to retain some of the impact when you see the film. “It’s an ensemble piece. I love Slacker, all those American ensemble comedies. It’s a deconstructed murder mystery. It’s breaking down the different elements and giving people the murder mystery in a way they haven’t experienced before. There’s no detective. It’s over a short space of time. It’s trying to say, ‘is modern technology giving us a new way to tell stories?’ You’re with a character giving the beat of the mystery, the red-herring, and you can’t go away from them. You’ve got to stay with them. It’s a character driven drama with a few funny lines.” 

We’d briefly discussed how transcribing teaches you a lot about people, and I ask how he writes his characters. “I write in two ways. I come from a research background and I worked on other people’s films as assistant. I went hardcore on the research here. I’ve looked at thousands of hairdressers. You pick up the lingo, you’re taking notes, you’re in the background. They’re always like, ‘who’s this random guy in our hairdressers?’ It’s a bit weird. But you know, eventually, they see what you’ve done and that you’re a bit random, not completely random.” 

The invisible interviewer, the ghost of interviews past, appears and Hardiman answers a question that’s come up a fair amount during promotion. “We’ve had these incredible screenings where people loved it which is just magical. And people were like, ‘why is so diverse?’ I was like, ‘what a bizarre question.’ It wasn’t aggressive but I guess when you stand up on stage- usually there’s the caster with me. My family is pretty diverse. I’ve got mixed race cousins and I’ve grown up in that world which I think is just modern Britain, but with hairdressing you can show a lot of different types of people. In the film I’ve tried to make sure that it’s a competition, that it does have lots of different types of hair. Hair is culturally important. 

*Up here* you’ve got culture and the way that people want to present themselves, and *down here* you’ve got the fun and backbiting where people are scissors-out. I wanted to create a space that is real and that felt like modern Britain. I wanted a cast that’s inclusive and is the face of the country I believe I live in. That was a long quote answer about character, sorry. It shouldn’t be a thing, it’s just life. I’ve grown up in a diverse family. I think most people have, at least in some way, it’s very natural. 

And also you cast the best person for the past. We’ve had such an unbelievable cast. We’ve got Claire Perkins who was in Eastenders originally. She’s been in loads of stuff now. She’s a big theatre actress. She came in and terrified me. I’ve never been in a casting like it. It was just phenomenal. Of course, she’s gonna get the role. We’ve got Luke Pasqualino who was in Skins. So this was a very different role for him.” You might also know him from BBC’s Musketeers and Miranda. “He’s such a kind human being. He’s flown all the way around the world for us. He always makes sure he’s there. He’s just awesome. I think his performance is mindblowingly brilliant. I would say that obviously because it’s my film but it’s not my performance so hopefully I can compliment him.” 

He then makes sure he’s answered the question thoroughly. “Research… people you know… I also think of my family. Something that was very apparent to me from a very young age, my mum had me and my cousins in the bath at a very young age and there’s all these different shampoos and things. You don’t forget it. It’s something I felt was important. Hairdressing is something that isn’t given a lot of time. You hear the phrase universal story and that tends to mean someone has a kid, someone has a lover. Alright, everyone has that. I feel like there’s another way to approach that. To say, this is a universal concern but these characters don’t have to be like everyone you know. It’s more about a culture and a comment on society at the same time as being fun. Everyone’s just human. Tell the stories you want to tell and if they relate then they relate. If they don’t, there’ll be something in there. We all do the same thing.” 

He then tries to answer questions I haven’t asked, stops and says, “Hit me with anything.” I ask if he’s seen the scene from Fleabag. He most certainly has. “I’ve seen every single film about hairdressing.” I ask about inspiration. “It’s a funny one. Claire Denis is sort of my hero. You know when you want to be your hero and you start filming and realise you’re not, you’re very, very different. I had to find my own voice. My first film is called Radical Hardcore. It’s a love story set against the backdrop of the history of British carpet making. And the second one is called Pitch Black Panacea. It’s about lazy eyes. Now this is about hairdressers. I like pattern which is why I like carpets. My grandad’s blind which is why the eye thing came up. You just pluck something from your life and go down a rabbit hole. 

The internet is a big thing for me. I’m aware of the moment in cinema in the 60’s, maybe mid 70’s, where the War Generation became separated from the 60’s generation. The language of storytelling was very different and I feel like we’re going through something similar now. You’re experiencing the internet so quickly now and everyone has to speed up. Scrolling through Instagram now, it goes cats, it goes comedy, it goes heartbreak, so quickly. It means that we’re dealing with emotions, characters and people in a completely unique way. It feels like there’s a young generation of completely new storytellers. I want to tell modern stories that connected to the technology and the emotions of the moment.” 

I ask how he approaches that, either going for bigger storytelling or smaller, more detailed films. “I think it’s postmodernism. Literature did it in the 70’s and 80’s, art did it in the 90’s and I think almost we’re just catching up. The internet sped everything up. You could call it collage or freewheeling, but I feel like it’s a little bit of not worrying or being constrained by genre. You’re able to throw things together quicker and you’re able to move a lot quicker. There’s historic films that have done it. Zéro de Conduite is a 30’s film that works in quite a postmodern way. There are films that were sort of forgotten like Funeral Parade of Roses, it’s a Japanese film that sort of inspired Clockwork Orange. People at the time must have seen it and thought, ‘this is fucking amazing.’ Now, we see it and think, ‘this is the language of now.’ We can go from live action to animation. We can keep things in a consistent take. We can jump time. You don’t need to tell everyone everything. You can trust the audience to keep up. That’s how I wanna work, to test genres and test people. I don’t work everyone to the bone or anything but I do feel like I’m gonna tells stories in a quick and fun way.” 

Hardiman reflects the Millennial-led age of niche. “I like carpets but the way you can become an expert in carpets in like 20 minutes, you can see the whole history of it just by looking at Wikipedia, that changes everything. People become a walking version of Wikipedia but with emotion. That’s where I want to take it. I want to take those experiences which are ubiquitous now and weave them into narratives. The age of niche is a good phrase, it’s exactly how I feel.”

I compare it to how something my parents might think of as ‘out there’ is really major content on TikTok.

“It’s like wildfire. It’s a completely different time that we’re working in. It means we’ve got a traditional kind of story telling that’s going to blow up with the older generations, and a young generation that almost don’t connect. You had Patton and M*A*S*H come out in the same year. Patton’s like a war film and M*A*S*H is like an ironic film. Everything, Everywhere, All At Once is finding depth in surface. You know that phrase: is is surface or substance? I feel like you can do something surface level now and find depth because we’re so bombarded. That film’s about depression and how we deal with the bombardment. So yes it’s hitting you but it is also hitting you on a deeper level. I left thinking this is communicating to people I’m growing up with. We’re all being just destroyed by social media.” 

There’s a lot to be said about how that other A24 film captures living online and trying to live a normal life. “It’s impossible. This film’s been an incredible experience, we’ve got some incredible reviews and people going wild for it and I’m so thankful. Every so often, someone’s not going to be so keen on it. I try hard not to be on Twitter. You’ve got to keep a level head and remember you don’t want to make something for everyone. You want things to split people and engage them in a different way. If you make it bland for everyone, it’s not going to work.” One of the big shifts is how critics in traditional media used to be the ones giving that range of opinion but now it’s outsourced to everyone who has seen or even heard about the film. “I can’t complain, people have loved it and I’m so thankful. And you never expect to make a film. Genuinely. I’ve made a few shorts. I put all my money into my first short and people liked it and I was so thankful then. Then we got the film, I was like, ‘I know most British first time features don’t make it out, that’s normal.’ So then when people wanted to see it, I was over the moon.” 

I point out the obvious huge achievement of the film, getting distributed by A24 and Mubi.

“They’re incredible and they’re so invested in film and so kind and genuine. In my experience in film- I like everyone so maybe I’m talking rubbish- but they’re so kind. And you know, they temper your expectations. It’s a first time British feature, it’s not Top Gun.” Both companies meet a major issue of streaming overload where nothing quite sustains and nourishes you after you’ve watched it. “They’re incredible. Saved film isn’t the right word, but they’ve given us a space. It’s funny, do you find that sometimes you’re looking across at people awards and think there aren’t the films that I’m watching? Then you look over there and you think there’s a whole different ecosystem. I think that’s where all young people are looking. I find it pretty discombobulating. I love dating programmes, I go mad for them. Did you watch Fuckboy Island? The ending is so heartbreaking.” He pauses to check spoilers are alright and then explains the concept is three women who have to work out if they’re dating someone genuine or someone who’s going to take the prize money for themselves when they win. Apparently the latest season ended with the rake running off with the cash like a modern Austen-esqe villain. “I was devastated. It’s one of the most shocking bits of TV I’ve ever seen and I’m kind of grateful to Netflix for putting so many dating shows on. It’s like hairdressing. You can have both gaudy, ridiculous fun and have genuine depth.

 It’s linked to postmodernism and moment of now. You can look at stupid cat memes and still be feeling something and be thinking about life. You can flick between these things and be two, three, four things at once. Dramedy almost didn’t exist until recently. In Art Cinema, everybody used to get laughed out of the room if they said, ‘Oh it’s a dramedy.’ Now everything’s a dramedy.” Without that combination, a work almost looks unpolished. “Comedy’s something I’m genuinely passionate. Medusa, it’s not a straight comedy, it’s sort of on the edge. I’ve always felt that if you’re looking for realism, I love British Cinema, I’ve always wanted to work in it and Ken Loach is a big inspiration. He gets a lot of criticism, he’s been a round for a while so of course he is, and his films are lot funnier than people give him credit for. Raining Stones is a straight up comedy, and it’s one of the best films I think Britains ever made.

True realism involves comedy. Even at our lowest point, people make jokes. Sometimes you watch films and you think, ‘give me a joke, give me a proper line.’ It’s truth. People aren’t that serious. Medusa is obviously a heightened world. I’m interested is a level of proficiency in something that goes into obsession. Maybe because it’s quite close to home. Like everyone here, I’ve watched a weird amount of film. I’ll watch anything.” 

It’s refreshing that Hardiman looks at careers outside of the more traditional obsessive artist category. “It really bugs me actually. Salon International is on this weekend and we’ve got a stall there. We can’t promote the film yet because it’s not out until next year but I just wanted to be there to say hello to hairdressers. It’s celebrating hairdressers.”

He adds he’d love to make a film about airports, the great leveller.

“It’s the same with hairdressing. People stand out but it’s a great leveller. Eugene is phenomenal. The reason I really wanted him to do this film is that, it seems reductive to call him a sculptor with hair, but I mean it in a particular way. If you look at modern sculpture it’s a lot of the internet, a lot of collage, a lot of disassembly and showing the artifice. He comes from the punk generation. He’s worked with Westwood, McQueen, Galliano and they work with the same language. They’re breaking down clothing, he’s breaking down hair. And the film is the backstage of the competition, you’re seeing everything which are semifinished. 

It was important for him to be there because, firstly, I think he’s exceptional, secondly, the language of the film is the same as his sculptural language, and thirdly, because he’s as good as any contemporary artist. People don’t view hairdressing on the same pedestal as film, art, all these different things. I want to show people it’s as high as any other creative discipline. I have a big issue when it’s, you know, levels.”

I ask who his favourite hairdresser in London is.

“Eugine, obviously. It’s gotta be Eugene.”

He’s hesitant to share his favourite with readers in case it excludes other hairdressers but I mentally jot them down for my next appointment and he showed them the film. He particularly loved researching in South London, even naming one character, Etsy, after a hairdresser in Camberwell.

“She was so kind to give me her time and have this random guy in the back of her salon. She said so many amazing things about weave. She said, ‘you’ve gotta say Russian weave.’ Russia is the place, obviously not now. You need people to give you keys and actually take you in and give you an understanding and knowledge of hair. You get into people’s lives and they blow you away really quickly. It’s about being open, and if you’re not horrible, people might give you some of their love.” 

When asked about his film recommendations, he praises Tangerine and the last decade of cinema. After Claire Denis he got into Altman and Leos Carax. “He’s got some great bits, not everything, but the early films like Holy Motors. Boy Meets Girl specifically. It doesn’t have any rules. You can leap and it doesn’t matter. Just take people with you. There’s different strings to your bow. You can treat it like music or make it fully character based.”

I joke that this is the most director-y director interview I’ve done (still to date) complete with references to postmodernism and niche films. He says he has a list on him and produces a well folded small piece of paper with dozens of minute titles. “It’s more for in a moment when you’re really down and you just want to sit and think about a film you love. I usually keep it in my wallet but I was at the hairdressing convention talking to someone saying ‘what films are you into?’” 

He looks at it, “Oh, ok, Tampopo is a film that I really love. It’s a Western in Japan about ramen. It’s fucking amazing. You’ve never seen anything like it. There’s different things like the Archipelago and Hunger were films that I saw quite close to each other and it made me feel like British Film had more possibilities. Vagabond, I think is phenomenal. Tangerine. I love these films. P’tit Quinquin. The original one. Bruno Dumont is so hardcore. He’s like Claire Denis without the love. He made a comedy out of nowhere and it’s just one of the greatest films ever made.”

He explains the film even as we’re ushered for the second time to end the interview. Like his characters, who he hopes will guide audiences through the film, Hardiman “tips over into obsession” but without losing a sense of fun and openness.